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dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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-178 Plymouth Plaza (1959-63)

This model was first issued in january 1959 without suspension. This was added in 1960 for the Plymouth USA Taxi and Canadian metro cab.

This variation is un-recorded so far in Force, Ramsay, GBDT and TMT.

• 1959 - 1960 No suspension, ref. number stamped in base plate.
• 1960 - 1963 With suspension, no ref. number stamped in base plate.

Was there a mid variation :
with suspension and without ref. number ?
with number and suspension ?

A picture of the base plate with suspension will be welcomed.

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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Jacques, I found this 178 with suspension, which is also visible through the windows of the model and without a number in the base plate on Ebay USA.

I also show my Dinky Toys 178 Plymouth Plaza in plain box with correct colour spot, without suspension and with number 178 in base plate. It is priced 3/5 on the box, which is the price in 1959 and 1960. I could not find other baseplates. The 265 and 266 taxis I found, all have a base plate with suspension and no model number.

Simultaneously from this place I ask a question to Jan W. Jan, can you please put your 178 topic in Jacques's, so that everything ends up in one topic?

Kind regards, Jan Oldenhuis 4 February 2021

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janwerner
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Hello Jan, I had to discover what you mean by 'your 178 topic' and found that it's in the 'British Boxes' forum, so it's a different thread: the 178 as seen from the boxes point of view. It does not discuss the model itself but the box. If it were joined with this very topic this remarkable box might be overlooked. Of course I understand your point, but that kind of overlap or on the other hand split is always possible in retrieval systems like this. Well, anyway, by mentioning this box issue, we have in fact made a reference to the box topic of this 178 here. Apart from that, I would simply not have the competence to join these threads. Kind regards, Jan 

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Jan Oldenhuis
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Jan, thanks for the explanation. I hadn't seen it from that point of view.

Kind regards, Jan O.

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Jan Oldenhuis
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Some variations to add to this topic together with some related information.

Recently I acquired a 178 in Pink body with light green roof and flash with 4-wheel suspension. A nice addition to my 1st edition in light blue body with dark blue roof and flash, without 4-wheel suspension, which was introduced in January 1959 Meccano Magazine.

The first editions were issued without 4-wheel suspension and in a box without this mention. Later models got 4-wheel suspension and a box with the mention of 4-wheel suspension.

Introduction 178 Plymouth Plaza in Meccano Magazine UK January 1959. Not yet with 4-wheel suspension.

178 on front cover Dinky Toys Dutch catalogue 1959

178 in Pink and light green only pictured in Dinky Toys catalogue USA 1963 A.C. Gilbert Company.

My 178 in Pink body with light green roof and flash with 4-wheel suspension, with the later light yellow picture box also stated 4-wheel suspension on the box.

DT 178 with an early darker yellow picture box without stating 4-wheel suspension. Photo  lotsearch.net

There are multiple shades in Pink. I think my colour is more dark pink than light pink when comparing mine to other images. It has the base plate without number and with 4-wheel suspension and engraved patent numbers. It was delivered in the later light yellow picture box with the model shown in duo-tone colour on both sides of the box and the mention of the presence of 4-wheel suspension. As said, the first editions were issued without 4-wheel suspension and in a box without this mention. The combination of later model and later box with 4-wheel suspension is more scarce.

In my search I found also an 178 on Catawiki with a base plate without number and without 4-wheel suspension that I have not seen anywhere. Most first versions have number 178 in the baseplate. I think this baseplate was issued for a very short time in the beginning of the production and must be very rare. Both base plates shown below are not depicted in Jacques's encyclopaedia, so Jacques, perhaps you can use these pictures.

Base plate of my 178 without number, with 4-wheel suspension and engraved patent numbers.

Baseplate 178 Plymouth Plaza without number and without 4-wheel suspension (Photo Catawiki)

Based on the brochures shown below, the original model is a 1958 Plymouth Plaza 4 Door Sedan. It was the 1st Dinky Toys model with dual headlamps.

1958 Plymouth Plaza brochure Canada French with side flash till rear door. It was available with a 6 or 8 cylinder engine.

The Plymouth Plaza is an automobile which was produced by Plymouth from 1954 through 1958 model years. It was Plymouth's entry-level car throughout its run, priced below the Savoy. It was offered in sedan, coupe, and wagon variants, and known as Plymouth's "Price Leader." (Wikipedia)

1958 Plymouth Plaza brochure USA with side flash till rear door.

1958 Plymouth Plaza 4 door Sedan left side with side flash till rear door (Photo Wikipedia)

Right rear side with PLAZA badge.

My DT 178 Left side with side flash till rear bumper.

1958 Plymouth Savoy brochure with side flash with a drop till rear bumper.

From the images of the brochures above it appears that the side flash of DT 178 is a mix of the Plymouth Plaza and Plymouth Savoy. Up to the rear door is the flash of the Plaza and then up to the rear bumper of the Savoy.

1958 Plymouth Plaza front with V8 engine badge and dual headlamps.

DT 178 Plymouth Plaza - 1st Dinky Toys model with dual headlamps.

DT 192 De Soto Fireflite - Last DT American car with single headlamps. Photo Bruce Hoy DTCA.

The Model 178 was produced just before the adoption of the 4-wheel suspension, which was applied to the 150 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith for the first time since February 1959.

I couldn't find an Assembly drawing of model 178, but according to the 1961 DT catalogue below, the 178 was fitted with 4-wheel suspension in 1961. The Quality Control Stamp on an end flap of my box, being 1061 SK, confirms that the model was issued in October 1961. This feature was not fitted directly to all existing models. For example DT 191 issued after DT 150 in March 1959 first got 4-10-61 suspension added and DT 179 and 180 with the same production timeline as DT 178, changed from ridged to spun hubs, but never got 4 wheel suspension. Only DT 192 and 178 got also later on a box with the mention of 4-wheel suspension, but DT 191 never got one.

178 in Dinky Toys catalogue UK 1961 with 4-wheel suspension

My 178 box with Quality Control Stamp 1061 SK and mention of 4-wheel suspension on the box.

Like most models of its kind in the 1950s and 1960s, the Plaza — with its minimal trim and plain cloth-and-vinyl upholstery, and limited option choices — saw most of its appeal with fleet buyers, such as police departments and other law enforcement agencies, where luxury and comfort were not primary concerns. However, the model was available to budget-conscious private consumers who wanted or needed the room of a full-sized automobile and the availability of such items as a V-8 engine and automatic transmission. (Wikipedia)

1958 Plymouth Taxi brochure. (Photo autopaper.com)

The Plymouth Plaza was also issued as DT 265 Plymouth U.S.A. taxi ( October 1960-1964) and DT 266 Plymouth CanadianTaxi (1960-1966) and got from the start of production 4-wheel suspension.

Jan Oldenhuis, 21 March 2022

johnnyangel's picture
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As I have mentioned before -- please forgive the repetition if you heard this already -- the Plymouth Plaza is the model that made me a Dinky collector at the age of two. My family was living in a suburb of Chicago, where the Blue Cab company (it still exists today) was operating Plymouth Plaza taxis (car makes were not lost on me even at that age) that were painted in two-tone blue. When I saw the Dinky, I obviously had to have one, and my mother fashioned a taxi sign for its roof. After that, no other diecasts would suffice!

Of course at the time I had no idea that Dinky would soon produce a Plaza taxi of its own. Naturally, I would have one of those later too -- but it was the two-tone blue that ignited the Dinky flame!

janwerner's picture
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Thu, 07/28/2022 - 23:32

 

MB Simiele

 

Last issue 178 Plymouth Plaza, my latest find.

I had been searching for a long time for a nice example of the last issue 178 Plymouth Plaza in what I think is the most attractive color it was offered in, the light blue and white. The problem with this last issue as most of us know is the casting quality ranges from pretty good like the example I found to downright awful on many I have seen. The roof often suffers from mushrooming and lifting and the front lower fenders  often contain painted over flash. This one is quite nice and was worth the wait and, it just needs a box. 

Edited by: MB Simiele on 07/28/2022 - 23:33

[relocated to this thread by Jan W]

johnnyangel's picture
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A favorite model of mine, as I explained above back in March. However, it is a shame and a mystery that the model had the diagonal line disfiguring the front fender, and which got more and more pronounced as the tooling wore. Perhaps Jacques can explain why this odd unrealistic scar had been necessary?

It is notable that the 1961 catalogue page that Jan O. shared above actually illustrates the diagonal line! Obviously, the artist was working from looking at the toy, not the actual car. The line is, of course, not present on the box art or other promotional images.

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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Hello Jonathan,

This line is a mould partition line in other words where two parts of the mould meet. It is made of two right angles which wear with age making the line to grow more and more. This can be found on many Dinky Toys. Here are a couple of examples. I hope that you can understand if not let me know and I will try to make a drawing.

When these lines are too big, it is the end of a model, the mould can not be mended without altering the shape of the body.

It is obvious that the artist who made the drawing for the catalogue worked from a late production model and that he did not know what this line is.

johnnyangel's picture
johnnyangel
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Thank you for that, Jacques. If and when you have time, I think a drawing would be very useful. And, it will make for a nice addition to the Encyclopedia!